Interview with The Brand Journalism Advantage Podcast

Phoebe Chongchua is a multimedia brand journalist who loves to tell stories, craft brand strategies, and help brands gain exposure. On her podcast, The Brand Journalism Advantage, she shares how brands can gain a competitive advantage using content marketing, social media, PR, video storytelling, and more. The show is popular, and Phoebe has been named a “Top 50 Podcaster to Follow.” Give it a listen—you're sure to take away some great business tips.

Russ Stoddard, our founder and president, recently appeared on Phoebe’s show to discuss building a purpose-driven brand, the growing B Corp and benefit corporation movement, and the importance of corporate social responsibility.

The following is a (mostly complete) transcription of the podcast. You can visit Phoebe’s website to hear it in its entirety.

Phoebe: Hello Brand Journalism community, I'm Phoebe Chongchua. Thanks for tuning into The Brand Journalism Advantage Podcast. Here we go with the inside scoop.

On today's show, Russ Stoddard. Russ is founder and president of Oliver Russell, a consulting firm that builds brands for purpose‑driven companies whose products, services, or business models benefit society. He's also a leader in the Certified B Corporation® community, a new classification of companies that use the power of business to solve social and environmental issues.

Russ has helped start four companies and five nonprofits, and is a published author and playwright. Well, how about that?

Hey, Russ. How are you?

Russ: Hi, doing great Phoebe. Nice to be here.

Phoebe: I love what you're all about. First of all, we’ve had Katie Kerr on, maybe that name sounds familiar to you. She is with B Lab, the nonprofit that helps businesses do good for the world by offering a certification program for brands.

Russ: I did not know that, and I know Katie.

Phoebe: She's episode 35, so way back when. [laughs]

Russ: Great.

Phoebe: I'm well over 200 episodes, just turned that corner, actually. I’ll put that in the show notes, "Brand Journalism Community," so that you can go to thinklikeajournalist.com, and click on Katie's episode. It'll go hand‑in‑hand with what we're talking about today.

Because, Russ, you've got a great show for us, all about how to build a purpose‑driven brand that reaps serious rewards. We're all about doing good for the world, but you’ve got to have that pay off, too.

Russ: Yeah, you do. The way we look at it is that these items are not mutually exclusive—to make social and environmental impact along with financial profit.

Phoebe: That's so good. A lot of brands often wonder, "Well, how do I do that? How can I do the good that I'm trying to do, and still make a profit?" They sometimes think it doesn't go hand‑in‑hand, but you're going to show us the way, you're going to tell us what it's all about.

A word that comes up all the time in The Brand Journalism Advantage Podcast is "Transparency." I was going to also say, "Authenticity." Both go hand‑in‑hand. I know you're going to tell us a little bit more about that. That's really important, isn't it?

Russ: Yeah, it's hugely important, Phoebe. Actually, I'm very down on the word "Authentic" and "Authenticity" because I think, oftentimes, there are brands who are anything but, who try to co‑opt that.

The antithesis of that is being transparent in everything you do, and publishing the results and actions of your corporate efforts. Whether it's as far as social activism, whether it is environmental activities, and to also make certain that your employees know that, that your communities know that, and basically, have an open‑door policy as far as the information regarding your company.

Phoebe: So, so very important. Russ, we kick it off here with our “think like a journalist” quote, and it goes like this—I think you're going to really like it. "Companies with a higher purpose are more profitable than those that just think about the bottom line." That's Brian Solis.

Russ: Oh yeah. Brian Solis, he's a great guy. I agree 100 percent, because if you look at many of the principles of a purpose‑driven company, they're quite conservative in nature.

It's everything from treating your employees well—and one of the reasons you treat employees well, aside from wanting to be a good human being, is that it makes them more productive, you have less turnover, and you're able to attract more talented employees. 

Also consider your environment. If you're looking at your inputs and outputs, the less energy that you use impacts the planet less, but it also costs you less.

All those things flow straight through to the bottom line.

Phoebe: They sure do. In doing this, you're really getting them to be active as part of the brand's message and the brand's story.

Of course, here on The Brand Journalism Advantage Podcast, we're always talking about video storytelling and multimedia storytelling. So when you can involve your employees and get them to take part in it, you can get them to whip out their iPhone and start shooting video, telling stories—really empower them.

Of course, train them about what's acceptable, what's within the brand's parameters, but get them involved and they’ll surely help build the brand, and stay with the brand a lot longer.

Russ: Absolutely. It's interesting. There are some brands that take maybe a more proactive approach as far as the employees as advocates go. We’re a little bit less formal about it. We lead them to it, but don't force them to do it, and we find it ends up to be a whole bunch more honest that way.

Phoebe: That's right.

One last thing I'll say about that, I think it’s really cool that the perspective the employees have is very different than that top‑level C‑suite. So they come up with things that sometimes are even closer and more powerful for the brand if you give them the ability to tell those stories, and you empower them to come up with ideas.

There’s a lot of great information in the Brand Journalism community. You know you can head over to thinklikeajournalist.com to find it all in the show notes.

But right now, Russ, I'd like for you to kick it off with a success tip that can empower our community.

Russ: The success tip really is Branding 101, and it's about your market positioning. It's absolutely critical to develop a unique positioning in the marketplace that's going to give you a competitive advantage. Oftentimes this requires a narrowing of your focus and your audience.

There are many companies that are afraid to do that, for fear they’re going to leave some opportunities on the table, but what this really does is puts you into a place to where you can marshal your resources and become a thought leader in the space, and it pays huge, huge dividends.

We've done that through the entire business of creating higher purpose as far as brands go. What we find is this is an audience and a universe where they're very, very keen to work with like‑minded, kindred-spirit companies who share values.

When we get into a competitive pitch for a company that has a product, or a service, or a business model that benefits society, boy, we generally hit it out of the park.

Phoebe: Love that. Brands like Ben & Jerry's obviously come to mind when you think about businesses doing good, right?

Russ: You bet. Ben & Jerry's, Patagonia, King Arthur Flour, Method cleaning products, New Belgium Brewing. There is a very, very active, vibrant, and growing community around higher purpose.

Phoebe: Super, super cool.

We've shared a little bit of your background. I'd love to learn a little bit more. If you can take us to that moment in time that's considered your career highlight, your proudest moment, tell us that story so we can be right there with you and experience it.

Russ: It's interesting. We've had the good fortune to have a number of clients over the years who have allowed us to be very creative on their behalf. So, really, for a smaller agency in a mid‑market like Boise, we’ve won a ton of national awards.

It's always gratifying to know that you can compete against the big girls and boys, but if I really think about what's been the absolute high point, it probably happened last year when we were selected as one of the Best for the World for workers by B Lab and B Corp.

Hugely gratifying because, number one, it says that the investments we're making in these areas are really paying off and, number two, that community of B Corps, in some regards, is the crème de la crème of companies, and the way they approach employment practices. So for us to be recognized by that body was really something.

Phoebe: That is so great. Congratulations.

Russ: Thanks very much.

Phoebe: Really awesome. 

All right, you knew this moment was coming. We're going to talk about a time when it didn't work, when things didn't go so well. Tell us that story. Let's go down into the trenches—what it felt like, what it revealed to you and, most important, how you find correction as direction.

Russ: It's interesting that we've always been a values‑driven business here. My story centers around a time when we varied from our core business values.

A number of years ago, we looked at repositioning our business, and we had a consultant—a very, very sharp guy—and he looked at the universe of opportunities, and he sold me—as the leader—on a positioning that worked towards doing work in the marketing automation space for high‑tech companies. We had a little bit of experience in both areas, and he said that's really where your financial opportunity was.

As we do here, we went whole hog into it, and the results were absolutely abysmal. It wasn't that we weren't smart, and it wasn't that we weren't credible. But, you know what? Nobody here at the business really wanted to pursue that positioning. The number-one reason is it went against our core values.

Our core values are to be progressive, which we define as moving forward by embracing change, to be collaborative, to be socially responsible, and to be creative. It's that last one that really didn't hit. I know there are a lot of folks in the marketing automation world who would probably beg to differ and say, "Yeah, it's creative," but, boy, I don't think that's the case.

It absolutely fell flat. I had to stand up in front of the employees and do a course correction after about a year of abysmal financial results and say, "You guys, I made a mistake. And as a leader of the group, I broke one of the core brand values, so we're going to change course again."

Phoebe: But you know what, that's that pivot. I love it, you used the term "course correction," that's that “correction is direction” that I talk about.

Russ: Right.

Phoebe: You admitted it and you said, "Hey, we lost track of our brand values, and so now we're getting back on track, and this is the direction we're moving in." So all is well, and a lesson learned. That, I think, really says a lot to your employees. What was the reaction from your employees?

Russ: They cheered. They agreed 100 percent, too. That's when we got revamped around our positioning of building purpose‑driven companies.

Everyone here absolutely loves it. They live it. They work it. They volunteer for it. It's really been an amazing change.

Phoebe: I want to make sure we have time to talk about this. Because with purpose‑driven companies we've heard books like "Lead a Purpose‑driven Life," and "Find Your Passion." Some people really struggle with this, and I think brands might struggle with it. As we mentioned earlier, how do you do this and make that profit?

So, again, this is all about how to build a purpose‑driven brand that really reaps serious rewards. Russ is going to kick it off with a few tips, and I've got some questions that I want to press you on. Why don't you start it off, Russ?

Russ: You bet. The first thing you start with is shaping your core values and your purpose. What is the change you want to use your business to make in the world as a social entrepreneur? That's really the heart of the foundation right there. It takes a lot of work to come to an agreement and figure out what those are.

The next—and most critical piece of the equation—Phoebe, is to figure out a way to prove that because, as you know, actions talk and bullshit walks. 

Phoebe: Yes.

Russ: The way we, of course, chose to do that is to become certified as a B Corporation. There are any number of other assessment tools out there. That's really the beauty of all this is people are trying to figure out how this works and how does it affect the bottom line.

Everything is immensely measurable, so you're able to figure out where you're getting your return on investment. Is it your actions in the community, your actions regarding your employees, the environmental policies, the social platform, or your supplier network? You can actually look through there and see what’s throwing to the bottom line.

Phoebe: I love that so far.

Let's talk a little bit about brand promise versus a brand purpose, because there's definitely a difference. A lot of brands are so in the habit—including in their content marketing and their advertising—of making brand promises and thinking that's enough. What's the difference there, and what do they need to be doing moving forward?

Russ: It could be a semantic issue when it comes down to it, but really, the issue on brand promises is, oftentimes, it has very little to do beyond product or service success. It doesn't include the people and the planet as far as the definition there.

What you'll find from purpose‑driven companies is they work on this every day. They're very cognizant of it. It's integrated into what they do, as opposed to something that's been created by senior management as a meeting and just attached to a poster on a wall.

Phoebe: How about answering that all‑important question? Why do we exist? What is, after all, our purpose? How do you say that a brand should go about addressing that?

Russ: Oh boy. It starts with every single employee at a company, as well as consumers. I hate to call them consumers, sometimes that's shorthand. Because, really, we're all people out there.

Everyone is searching for meaning in their actions, whether it's to create a relationship with a brand rather than a commercial transaction, or whether it's to feel good about your work rather than just pulling hard on your oar all day long for a bottom-line profit.

That's certainly where it's coming from—a desire from people to get more out of the world. And from consumers who now expect to have their values aligned with a company's as well, and expect the companies to be able to prove that rather than just say it.

Phoebe: Russ, in doing this, you talk about strong personality. You talk about not being afraid to take a stance. How does that have anything to do with the purpose? Tell us more.

Russ: A strong personality—how does that come across as far as the brand personality? Really, that's just Branding 101 right there. You create a strong personality that's differentiate-able in the marketplace.

As far as taking a stand, oftentimes that comes from your values. I can tell a story. Last year we had a very, very large client approach us with a seven‑figure budget and a very interesting assignment. We got knee‑deep into all the planning for it.

Then what happened is quite interesting. Their CEO happened to be cruising around our website and saw some of our values and our purpose, and took exception to that. So we ended up, actually, parting ways with a million‑dollar‑plus client because we stood behind our values.

Phoebe: That's an interesting story. Can you go a little deeper? Why would they take exception to it?

Russ:  They took exception to it for a couple of reasons. One of which, we have a predilection against working with weapons manufacturers, and this is not about hunting or anything, but the type of weapons that are created primarily to kill innocent civilians, or what have you. They had some different thoughts on the matter.

We also don't work in the triple X entertainment arena as well. So, they saw a grouping of these clusters in there, and they thought that we were equating them to pornographers, which was absolutely not the case.

Phoebe: I see. Not everyone's a fit, right?

Russ: No, no, no. That goes back to being values‑based. You want to work for an employer who shares your values. You want to work with companies as a B2B proposition who share your values.

Phoebe: Let's wrap this up by talking about storytelling and narrative, which you say is directly related to design and writing. How does that fit into building that purpose‑driven brand, and how that's going to pay off when you do that?

Russ: It's interesting. Maybe I'll lead. It seems like design gets a lot of the kudos these days, and rightfully so, because there’s power in it and it influences everything we do. Really short-shifted is given to writing. In the whole equation—as you look at Instagram or social media—so much is image based.

But really, at the heart of every story is storytelling. It goes back to the very beginning, as far as the way humans communicate, share lessons, and what have you. It all starts with an idea. An idea is fleshed out by writing.

Today you get to see the value of writing as far as your brand goes. Very important, whether it's on social media, in a 140‑character Tweet, or a headline. And in this image‑driven world, I think it's all the more important.

Phoebe: Sure it is, and it's important for it to not just be what we might call "click bait." Something that is catchy at first and then will lead you down a path that doesn't deliver on its promise or its purpose.

Russ: Absolutely. That's the heart of the worst in it all these days, the click bait, which is the social media equivalent of bad advertising. People have a pretty sensitive sniffer anymore for advertising, whether that's a 30‑second TV spot, or a sponsored post, or what have you.

Really, when you're writing, you're just trying to tell a story. You're not trying to embellish. You're trying to convey the facts and do it in a way that's emotionally compelling without delivering generalities and too much corporate smarm on it.

Phoebe: Absolutely. You got that right. I was just asked by a writer to talk a little bit about brand journalism and my take on that. You hit it on the head. It's not about the advertising, it's about delivering what the end-user needs.

I spent the better part of 15 years in TV as a news reporter and a news anchor. What we always had in mind is what the end-user wanted—the information they needed to get that was going to help them lead. In many cases at the stations I worked for, the goal was to help them lead a better life. Make it a better world.

That's what I loved about that was it was storytelling with the end-user in mind. Now, of course, news is a business, too, so our reports would be in 90 seconds.

It's arguably notable how much good you can do in that little 90‑second report, which is why I'm thrilled with where we are today, with the medium like this, Skype, Google Hangouts, and things like that, where you can broadcast your message around the world, and you can take as much time as your audience will pay attention and listen to, to deliver it.

Russ: Absolutely, and I think the simplicity of message is absolutely paramount today. I think that's what really breaks through the clutter because there's just so much out there. If you can take a page and shrink it down to one sentence, you score big.

Phoebe: You got it. I love it. I'm actually working on a book right now that is going to be very short. Hopefully that'll break things down and help people realize how they can make their own videos and be their own media. So stay tuned Brand Journalism community, that's coming.

But it's time to think like a journalist, Russ. You've been hired by an ailing company that's about to financially collapse, its reputation's shot. You've got one month, a $1,000 budget, a smartphone, and a laptop. How do you begin to turn this company around?

Russ: Wow, a $1,000 budget. First of all, I get in with the owner or the CEO, and we figure out what's gone wrong, assess that. Then I think what I'd do is I'd hire a videographer. I'd get the CEO in the employee lunchroom with employees. I'd have the CEO basically state, "Hey, here's the problem. Here's how we screwed up. Here's the fix and the deadline as far as when that fix will happen."

Because, after all, this seems more like a PR issue than a marketing issue. Then I would basically have the employees ask questions. Nobody asks better questions than your employees.

Then I would spend just a little bit of money. I'd whack that into a video, and use that as the basis of communications. I'd probably spend—oh, let's say I have $500 left—I'd order out for some pizza and beer. Then I would just say to the employees, "OK, let's go out and share this on our networks and alert our other influencers as well, and get the story out there."

Phoebe: Boom. That's how you do it! That's great, Russ. Just love that.

What’s one piece of technology—video, multimedia equipment, or an app—that you just can't live without?

Russ: Oh geez, I've got a couple. The first is a little bit old-school, it's actually the online "Wall Street Journal." I turn to it every day, and I've been there a long time. It's the first publication that caused me to entirely switch away from a paper‑based version. They're actually doing some very interesting things with video reporting, and it’s interesting to see that transition from print to video.

The other one is called the Hopper. I travel a lot, and Hopper is really a fair prediction software app. So I could basically say, "Hey, I'm going to go down to see Phoebe in San Diego, March 26th." I put that into Hopper and then it gives me alerts as to when the best time to buy tickets are.

Phoebe: Sweet, I love it. I'm all over that. In some 200‑plus episodes it hasn't been mentioned, so thank you.

Russ: Score.

Phoebe: One book, documentary, podcast, Internet channel, blog that you'd like to recommend to our community?

Russ: I think I'd recommend Aaker on Brands. It's a book that's published within about the last year by David Aaker. He's the father of modern branding. He's written a number of books, hundreds of scholarly articles, and he's taking it and boiling it down in some very easy, digestible lessons.

Phoebe: The year is 2025, we're in our expert predictions. Give us a look from your vantage point—what’s going to be important? What should brands be focusing on now to stay relevant? About 10 years out, how will the purpose‑driven brand need to differentiate itself and expand as the years go by?

Russ: It might not happen entirely by 2025, but I actually think most companies will have a very significant aspect of a purpose to them. It's going to take a little while, but it's going to happen. 

It's almost off to the side, but I actually think that a social impact and environmental work will actually be incorporated into the financial measures of the overall corporation. So it won't be an either/or, it will just be one thing.

Phoebe: That just makes me smile. I certainly hope so, because that will create not only a better brand, but a better world, too.

Russ, thank you for everything you've shared with us. It's been very enlightening. I appreciate it so much. As you know, Brand Journalism community, it's in the show notes at thinklikeajournalist.com. Russ, thanks for being on The Brand Journalism Advantage.

Russ: Hey, you're so welcome. Thanks for having me, Phoebe.

Phoebe: Hey, Brand Journalism community, you know that you can find all the valuable information in the show notes. All you have to do is head on over to thinklikeajournalist.com, and in the search box type in 215. This interview and the resources mentioned in this episode will pop right up.